While Lal Krishna Advani is the master of the foot-in-the-mouth maneuver, the BJP has done one up on him – it has managed to perform the anatomically impossible task of shoving its head up its own arse. And I am not talking about its position on the nuclear deal. BJP president Rajnath Singh has blamed the violence against Christians in Orissa and Karnataka on “Hindu anger”–
“Hindu anger and resentment against large-scale forcible conversions is the root cause of anti-Christian riots in both the states,” he said. He was convinced it could end only if strong measures were put in place to “stop forcible, or by allurement, conversions of Hindus by Christian missionaries”.
He said every conversion should be verified to ensure that missionaries have not forced a person or offered any sort of allurement to convert a Hindu to Christianity.
“The government should look into finding a way to verify this. Whenever a Hindu converts to Christianity, there should be verification by district authorities to the state that the conversion is not by force or after extension of any allurement such as promise of money or food.
“There should be a verification document with the person who has been converted. If such a system is put in place, there will be no opportunity for this sort of violence.”
Should the police also start a daily door to door verification campaign to see if women have not been raped or beaten, property has not been stolen etc instead of letting the affected people come and register a complaint? This is fascism, pure and simple, and Singh is treading on dangerous territory here. If attacks on Christians are justified on the basis of “Hindu anger”, is Islamic terrorism justifiable on the basis of “Muslim anger”, Naxalism on the basis of “class conflict”? Such stupid statements were to be expected from the BJP though.
The Congress-led UPA on the other hand is trying to see what political benefits it can gain from incidents of murder, rape and church burning. Should the Bajrang Dal be banned or not? In pondering this question, it has let murderous goons and arsonists run amok and failed to protect the citizens. The flareup in Assam and the attitude of Assam’s Nero only goes to show that when it comes to protecting the life and property of citizens, both political formations follow similar lines of thought.
In another development, megalomaniac Ramadoss is now planning to start a campaign against alcohol, and he is waving the Indian Constitution to make his point-
“The Constitution mandates all states to exercise prohibition but except J&K and Gujarat none of the states follow it. Prohibition is a state subject, I would urge all state governments to enforce to (sic) total prohibition.”
“Don’t encourage these despots”, Sauvik Chakraverti writes. He blames India’s reich wing press for having encouraged Anbumani Ramadoss by endorsing his perverse smoking ban. Regarding the Hindutva wackos, he says -“The country will become a Living Hell is (sic) these rascals who exploit faith are not put down by the mainstream press.” Read his whole post.
Further, the VHP and some organization that calls itself the “Global Human Rights Council” (the VHP and a human rights organization? Partners?) have together filed a complaint against Harbhajan Singh and Mona Singh for having danced in a reality show dressed up as Ravana and Sita. And the crazy part is a magistrate has admitted the criminal complaint.
The 5000 year old “rich Hindu civilization” is hurt when someone spoofs mythological characters; the Indian government cannot tolerate videos that show a performer dressed up as Gandhi doing a pole dance; and by failing to protect freedom of expression, the Indian constitution allows the Indian State to unleash a reign of terror on the flimsiest of reasons.
If India has to survive, it needs to be saved from two of its biggest enemies – its people, and its constitution.
Aristotle The Geek 
Comments
You know your cynicism is actually funny.
The BJP is hoping to do another 2002 in Orissa. And once again the opposition is failing to even ask the Ruling party to clarify their stand.Funny considering how Religious We Indians are, we just can’t tolerate religions. There was a time when we allowed the Parsis to blend in and the fruits of which we are getting in the form of the Godrej and Tata, Wadia etc.
Immigrants generally do well in foreign lands, that is why a lot of new immigration policies around the world surprise me.
I don’t know what Ramadoss is doing.He is like that lady who goes to the club all dressed up and nicely done but not to meet and mingle but just to get the attention. Can someone please tell him the state of government hospitals around the country?
The less said about VHP the better. But regarding Ravana, From what I have rad Ravana seems a much better person than Rama.
All of this makes me think.(although I do think I think too much!) One one hand you have the likes of Congress who practice monarchy and seem to be liberal in front of a TV broadcast but can’t do sh*t when its time for action.
On the other hand you have the likes of Modi ,who can actually put some money in peoples hands and generally provides a lot of things a state is assigned to provide but he doesn’t provide freedom.
He is a fanatic but is also wise(Refer link) and can get things done plus he has also changed his fanatical stance a bit. Seems to me he is not a bad choice but not because he is good but he is just bad among worse.
Forgot the link:
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080068519,
I seriously think that the people should make both the BJP and the Congress sit in the opposition this time round – when they no longer have power, they won’t be able to go berserk. While elections are still a few months away, and three months back I thought the UPA might just make it back, I feel that 2009 is the year of Mayawati. Watch out for her!
Ramadoss is plain crazy. Don’t worry though. I think the PMK (his father’s party) is going to align with Jayalalitha’s AIADMK in the coming general elections. So no more health minister Anbumani Ramadoss.
Modi, he surely did act fast on the Nano. If only he were less authoritarian, a liberal and an atheist. But then he won’t be Modi. The letter to Buddha and Mamata is only going to make them fume.
I seriously think that the people should make both the BJP and the Congress sit in the opposition
I concur! Where is a liberal party when you need one?!
We will have to create one ourselves. Jago Party seems to be a good option. But they are caught up in some contradictions of their own.
Jago Party seems to be well intentioned but a bit loose.
They talk about free markets and privatisation. They then corrupt this by trying to fix electricity prices.
They talk about minimal government and staying out of private decisions. They then fly in the face of this by banning production & sale of tobacco.
They talk about abolishing subsidies. And in the same breath, they propose the ridiculous notion of paying 600 rupees to every voter.
These kind of contradictions basically occur when a group of well-meaning people stumble upon some solutions but lack the cohesiveness of an underlying ideology.
Having said that, I must admit that given the RPA and the other parties in the fray Jago seems the best of the lot. Certainly more focussed than the bizarre Paritrana party (started by IIT alumni) and more committed to a manifesto than our mainstream political traders.
If only, they could pull their thoughts together.
Further, they (Jago) are not against regulations. And yes, Lok Paritran is spooky.
Without a coherent ideology, any attempt at curing the ills in our political system is destined to fail.
at first it seemed like political groups fueling the attacks but now i understand that this is actually a revolt. and it looks like slowly one by one states are starting to revolt. if found sikhs revolting to on some forum. never have i seen hindutva being advertised on such a big scale.
i see bajrang dal and vhp as nothing more than another fundamental group. though there different from the rest. they REACT rather than oppress.
same here. i only thing there asking for here is tough laws on conversion. that’s it. and the christian council is doing bad for itself by calling a ban on them. if the christians succeeded in doing what the muslims failed to do, then this will turn out “very disastrous” for the future of the christian community in india. the last thing they want now is to be on bajrang dals hit list right next to muslims. like some guy said… [b]”try burning hanumans(banning) tail and see what happens”.[/b]
this org has a huge following in india. they don’t have ID cards to prove they belong to one. all they do is wear a saffron bandanna and call themselves as bajrang dal activists.
wonderful things will happen once they ban them. we’ll be encouraging them to work more secretly. then i won’t be surprised to see if they started blowing up mosques and churches in different parts of the country. won’t be surprised to see if the cops didn’t do enough to catch the perpetrators. are we still under-estimating bajrang dal’s reach?
a simple way to get around all this is to ban the cause. ban those foreign missionary groups who’re connected to any form of religious org in any way. these groups come to india to provide help to the poor sections of the indian society. and bag a few converts in the process. else why would any religious sect provide all that stuff for free. :oh: ban these guys and your problem will be solved. one religion is enough to corrupt all.
They react, and they oppress. They are Hinduism’s answer to the Taleban and the Islamic moral police.
“ban these guys and your problem will be solved. one religion is enough to corrupt all”
Today we ban missionaries; tomorrow, cinema and music; next alcohol and western attire; then, prayers to the Hindu pantheon of Gods will become mandatory; there is no end to loss of freedom. I am not interested in a Hindu-ized version of Saudi Arabia.
Some one needs to take them head on. Let KPS Gill handle the job.
i think instead of confusing oneself and india by doing a bit here and a bit there, banning the cause can solve the problem.
regarding your scenario on the “supposed” hindu-zed saudi arabia of india… well that will not happen. that can never happen. if you were a hindu, then you’d understand the hindu system a little better. you’ll understand that there’s no concentration of power in hindusim. there’s no leader. there’s no one who gives orders. there’s no one who takes orders. there’s no need to compare hinduism with islam. being a pseudo-secular is one thing and making unrealistic scenerios to get your point accross is another.
don’t worry. im not here to try to convert you to hinduism. that sort of thing doesn’t happen in hinduism. there aren’t any paid evangelists in hinduism who offer crash course in ramayana and mahabharata either. im not a religious guy. im an atheist. i could care a fuucck less about hinduism. but i know injustice and unfair actions when i see one. i know why a christian humanitarian would rather setup in the poor sections of this country rather than in urban areas. c’mon dude, i get it. it’s the price this country pays for being secular. talk about logic, huh??
lets talk about human psyche… what’ll happen if you slap a guy on his left cheek? will he turn his right cheek? and what’ll happen when a hindu learns of a coversion that took place inside the deep jungals of india? will he say good? that now they’ll suddenly start speaking english? call centres need not worry anymore? earlier a dalit hindu, now a dalit christian? DIFFERENT? upliftment of the society? seriously, mr. pseudo secular guy… do you believe this BS. frankly, i don’t. that’s not fuuccking religious freedom. that’s called ripping you off for a few hundred rupees. a society once peaceful now divided.
a tribe in kandamal who believed and prayed in the only visible miracle known to man – nature, has now been tricked to join an organized religion – a man made religion. wonderful!!
and there are hundred such tribes in india. all gold mines for the christian missionaries. hundreds of little kandamals just waiting to happen. all ready to erupt.
i wonder what’ll happen if they ban bajrang dal?
“if you were a hindu, then you’d understand the hindu system a little better. you’ll understand that there’s no concentration of power in hindusim. there’s no leader. there’s no one who gives orders. there’s no one who takes orders. there’s no need to compare hinduism with islam. being a pseudo-secular is one thing and making unrealistic scenerios to get your point accross is another.”
For my views on Hinduism, secularism and pseudo-secularism, read-
* Buddha aur Ram
* Secularism and India
* Rama’s magic arrow
On Modi (yes, I hate him) and Gujarat-
* “Too much democracy”
* Modi sweeps Gujarat – The triumph of Moditva
* Modi running away with the election
* Will Gujarat elect Modi yet again?
* Doctors and the Red Swastika
On Islam, religious violence, morality and free speech-
* A mirage called freedom
* Freedom of speech, violence and India
* On democracy, hypocrisy, morality and bullying blockheads
* Fitna and freedom
* Stop whining and start pissing
Before “pseudo-secularizing” someone, its very important that you see if the target is vulnerable to such an attack. I am not; the Congress Party is.
“what’ll happen when a hindu learns of a coversion that took place inside the deep jungals of india? will he say good?”
How does it even matter; they were not Hindus; they are now Christians. So what if evangelical Christians are converting tribals who are basically pagans? If the tribals are so bothered about their culture, they should refuse aid and starve instead. Its because of consistent denial of political rights and development, and constant harassment do they embrace Christianity. Why did so many dalits embrace Buddhism?
Banning conversion is not going to solve anything. If forcible conversions are taking place, let the police take action. But the police will probably sleep instead. How does conversion give the VHP and the Bajrang Dal the right to go and burn churches, villages and kill people? If they want to do that, let them convert India into a theocracy and then indulge in their insanity.
“a tribe in kandamal who believed and prayed in the only visible miracle known to man – nature, has now been tricked to join an organized religion – a man made religion. wonderful!!”
All religion, including Hinduism, is man made. God did not create man; man invented God.
I am not a “pragmatist” and I do not like group mentality – siding with a cause purely because you belong to a particular country or religion or caste. You are basically discounting the fact that I really believe in something called “freedom”. The BJP, the Congress and every other political party play political games and don’t really care about freedom. If they did, India would be a country with sensible laws that would be implemented in a truly secular fashion. Religion and caste in India is highly politicized. Unless individual rights are respected and freedom of speech and expression is held to be paramount – murder, the quota system, boot licking and ass wiping, riots – these things will keep on happening.
“i wonder what’ll happen if they ban bajrang dal?”
I don’t know and I don’t care. Maybe they will resurface as Sugriva Dal or Angad Dal.
pseudo-secular lol. im not here for name calling dude. im just here to help you understand, what happens when you slap a guy on his left cheek. what will be the reaction? since your an economic freak and and you have gone through all the fallacies there is to know, then why double standards here? if you can think of immediate and long term effects in economics they why not in this drama? hmm?
the tribal’s can make decisions on there own you say?? buddy, if i were a tribesman, and if i knew that by converting myself to christianity i’d be angering some hindu morons who’d later hunt me down and scare me and my kids away in deep forrests then why the flying fuucck would i do this to myself in the first place. you might be thinking that it’s the hindu mob’s fault but wasn’t that a known reaction? didn’t we already knew something like this would have happened and continue to happen in the future. so my point is why do the christian missionaries still go there and conduct there work. doesn’t there ideology of a peaceful co-existence contradict itself? the division of the society and bloodshed is imminent if they do then why? isn’t “unity” what you guys are glorifying in the first place?
more people become buddists everyday that christianity… damn true. so why isn’t there a similar reaction on sikhism, buddhism and jainism??? the answers not because all of them came out from hinduism. but because NONE of these religions travel around the world to satisfy there endless urge for more followers. are you still wondering why these four religions despise islam and christianity? i can assure you they do…
kandhamal kind of tribes exists in india in hundreds… have you ever seen these four religions go out there and try to convert them?? NO… it’s not in there nature.
but look at whats happening now…. the hindu’s have started converting them back… like i said earlier – “one is enough to corrupt all”. the last thing i need now beside a christian guy selling christian literature of the railway platforms of mumbai is a hindu guy selling hindu literature… were getting more and more religious by the day.
organized religions and gods are man-made. hell yeah.
freedom? give a break dude… the world isn’t all rainbows and sunshine’s. we all imagine how our world should be like but thats far from the truth. if all the world thought like that then nobody would have taken down hitler in the first place. the mahatma wouldn’t have supporting WWII either. it’s a balance that always counts.
did i qualify as a religious nut in your economic brain yet?
“doesn’t there ideology of a peaceful co-existence contradict itself? the division of the society and bloodshed is imminent if they do then why? isn’t ‘unity’ what you guys are glorifying in the first place?”
Who said anything about their ideology being “peaceful”? Religion is all about war – make no mistake. Conversions in the past were simply about living and dying – the infidel/ polytheist/ idol-worshiper/ pagan could either become a Christian/ Muslim or die – that was the choice. Things are a bit different today – depending on where you stay, of course. The evangelists/ proselytizers now attract people using money, aid whatever. And gullible people fall prey to it, and clever people use it to up their standard of living – see it as you will.
“more people become buddists everyday that christianity… damn true. so why isn’t there a similar reaction on sikhism, buddhism and jainism??? the answers not because all of them came out from hinduism. but because NONE of these religions travel around the world to satisfy there endless urge for more followers. are you still wondering why these four religions despise islam and christianity? i can assure you they do…”
I won’t comment on Sikhism – Khalistani militancy was not exactly a love affair with Hinduism. But Jainism and Buddhism do have their roots in Hinduism. There have been conflicts in the past, however (and even recently when Modi tried to bring these religions under the umbrella of Hinduism). As far back as 300 odd BC, these religions were considered a major threat to the Hindu way of life, and Hinduism had to adapt itself by incorporating some practices from these religions into itself – it mutated. That’s why there are few Buddhists in the land of the Buddha. And Jains are but a small part of the entire population.
“freedom? give a break dude… the world isn’t all rainbows and sunshine’s. we all imagine how our world should be like but thats far from the truth. if all the world thought like that then nobody would have taken down hitler in the first place. the mahatma wouldn’t have supporting WWII either. it’s a balance that always counts.”
Maybe we should ban all religions and persecute the religious, like Communist Russia did to the Orthodox Church. That should fix the mess. Since you don’t believe in freedom, it shouldn’t matter. Believing in freedom and rights and being a pacifist are two different things. Without enforcement of rights and protection of freedom, society will devolve into a gang of warring tribes. I am not going to talk about libertarianism because you probably won’t appreciate it.
Since you are a “realist” and feel that banning conversions will set things straight, go right ahead. But history is proof that people will always find something over which they can fight and kill each other.
“did i qualify as a religious nut in your economic brain yet?”
You are a realist who thinks fixing leaks will probably stop the dam from bursting; but that’s not going to happen. That’s all I can say.
Hey Lurker,
I just get the issue. If people are being forced to convert, it’s obviously bad. It violates somebody’s right to live. But if they are being “allured” to convert, what’s the big problem? Don’t they have a freedom to choose their religion? Who is anybody to decide whether they are using their freedom wisely or not. If the Bajrang Dal is so hassled by it, why doesn’t it “allure” them back?
Banning conversions is just the religious version of economic protectionism. We’ll be stuck with dogmatic, oppressive, “ambassadors and padminis” of relions.
Sorry. Typo up there. The first sentence should read – “I just don’t get the issue”
@ramesh
everyone has the right to follow any religion they want. im not questioning that.
the issue is far from freedom. the question is should the missionaries be allowed to enter tribal villages for humanitarian aid but in the process, “ruin” or “disturb” a peaceful co-existence in the region that prevailed for thousands of years resulting in division of society and bloodshed?
the question of containing the violence comes way later. as we can see it’s hard to contain that here in india. bajrang dal and the vhp come way later.
i personally hate any sort of bans. i love my p0rno collection. but sometimes you have to do the wrong thing. that is why i took out the WWII issue. hitler went down but the aftermath of it resulted in over 300,000 war babies by german women credits to russians soldiers. the war was supported by our very own mahatma.
@aristotle
banning all religions might do even worse. a human conscience is a weird thing. we’ve still to evolve and shed our pointed monkey teeth’s. were not struggling to survive so i wonder if that’ll ever happen.
the khalistan moment is rejected by the very of sikhs of india. the only sikhs who support the ideology are a very few from the US and canada. i’ve argued with a lot of them and there complete idiots. all they can say is what kind of a place khalistan was going to be and they pretty much advocated going back to uncivilization. though that was long time ago. much has changed since manmohan singh took office. a generation of NRI sikhs who very told that the hindu crowd would reject a sikh leader now think otherwise. a surprising thing happened when a group of NRI sikhs told the leaders of punjab to vote for the congress led UPA during the trust vote. they didn’t vote for congress but it was surprising. the anti-sikh riots boosted the anti-hindu / anti-congress sentiments in the first place.
the MNS brigade. backed with a good number of buddhists are hindutva supporters actually. even raj thackrey. they haven’t glorified this in the open public but you’ll see a lot of it in the future. meetings between MNS leaders and the sang are common in many parts of maharashtra.
there’s no need to ban religion. what we need is brute force chinese type fascism. three years of it will force every religious nut to get back in the general line. china isn’t hit hard by islamist fundamentalism or any religion BS madness like the rest of the world is because of it’s fascist past. communism has entered the mosques. the first commandment of the quran in china is replaced with patriotic line saying the country comes first than the religion. china is heavily regulated but the fact is that it worked!!
we could either ban the bajrang dal and increase that meter of hatred a little more or we could ban conversion. by that i mean ban those humanitarian workers who’re associated with any form of religious organizations. no need to ban conversion or the “suppossed” freedom. ban these foreign gooks.
“…the question is should the missionaries be allowed to enter tribal villages for humanitarian aid but in the process, “ruin” or “disturb” a peaceful co-existence in the region…”
Lurker,
The tribals may not feel anything is “ruined”. They might welcome the “disturbance”. Eventually it’s up to them. After all, they have decided that whatever the missionaries are offering them is worth changing their religion.
And let me clarify. I don’t think Bajrang Dal should be banned. I also don’t think conversions should be banned. I don’t think anything should be banned. Or can be banned.
If a group of people (Bajrang Dal or not) initiates violence, those particular people should be jailed/prosecuted whatever. They are completely entitled to their opinion that conversion is bad. But they have no right to destroy life or property.
“we could either ban the bajrang dal and increase that meter of hatred a little more or we could ban conversion. by that i mean ban those humanitarian workers who’re associated with any form of religious organizations. no need to ban conversion or the “suppossed” freedom. ban these foreign gooks.”
I am not advocating that the Bajrang Dal be banned. What I am saying is – control them. The same applies to the goons from the MNS, Shiv Sena and KRV.
As I have said, you can try banning the foreign “missionaries”, but what purpose is it going to serve? The Hindutva wackos continued rioting even when the Maoists confirmed that they killed the Swami. they won’t stop till they have “reconverted” (a stupid concept) every Christian. Another thing, the tribal warfare in Orissa has an “economic envy” angle to it.
“what we need is brute force chinese type fascism”
What is your aim? That is, what is it that you want to achieve by calling for fascism?
Fascism and military rule (a lot of Indians seem to like dictatorships, god only knows why) seem like good solutions on paper – everyone will become “disciplined”. But the end result will be millions killed in slave labor camps, torture and murder – Soviet Russia, Communist China, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, Pinochet’s Chile. Brilliant examples.
The tribals may not feel anything is “ruined”. They might welcome the “disturbance”. Eventually it’s up to them. After all, they have decided that whatever the missionaries are offering them is worth changing their religion.
not sure what you mean. but by “ruin” i meant divide. the people revolting are from kandhamal and nearby villages. it’s not like 300-400 bajrang dal dudes took a train to orissa and started protesting. a portion of the village was converted to hinduism and another portion are christians. before that they were all the same. nature worshiping folks. but now there divided. and feuding with each other. that is what i meant by “ruining” a co-existence.
I don’t think Bajrang Dal should be banned.
if bajrang dal gets banned then all hell will break loose. from what i understand is that this org too lacks concentration of power. an “organization” would be a wrong word. a “mob” would be a better word to define them. looking at there history, it looks like all they want is a “cause”… an “opportunity” to run wild. we all know what happens after that. gujarat riots. bombay riots. babri masjid. now they have challenged the govt. to ban them. i smell something bad.
If a group of people (Bajrang Dal or not) initiates violence, those particular people should be jailed/prosecuted whatever.
our system is to blame for this. if a person or an org wants itself to be seriously heard by the media or the central govt. then a peaceful demonstration is a waste of time. burning a shop or a tyre on the streets would be the first right thing to do.
I am not advocating that the Bajrang Dal be banned. What I am saying is – control them. The same applies to the goons from the MNS, Shiv Sena and KRV.
i believe it’s our extreme minority-favoured policies to blame. we don’t even know what the correct population of this country is… the number of hindus.. the muslims… we don’t know. i wonder how the HRD minister comes up with reservation percentage figures. there’s far too much anger within the crowd and bottle has to break some day.
The Hindutva wackos continued rioting even when the Maoists confirmed that they killed the Swami.
i think there main opposition was conversions. like i said earlier, they just want an “opportunity”.just because they don’t talk in english in a gentleman accent, doesn’t mean you have to go and ignore his say.
i believe this incident could have been solved very peacefully. all the hindutva morons needed to hear was a ban. a ban on foreign missionaries could have solved it. that could have contained it. the missionaries would have still came. refer burma. nobody follows any bans or rules in this country anyway. ask ramadoss. yaar, bolne mai kya jatha hai.
politicians supporting and visiting suspected terrorist houses. mass opposition of nuclear deal. calling the delhi encounter a fake. sharma’s death a conspiracy. lucknow muslims openly proclaiming themselves as pakistani’s on orkut. existence of hundreds of terrorist sleeper cells in the country while the politicans do nothing for vote bank politics. far too many anti-nationalistic examples… we need fascism. we need it bad.
indians are not russians or chinese or cambodians where the concept of human life is forgotten. there are more than 15 different ethnicities in india. no one has to balls to go commanding the other one. i don’t know about dictatorship, but we sure need fascism. it’s the need of the hour.
Lurker,
* Fascism kills; it has never resulted in good – ever.
* Without freedom, life is not worth living.
* Countries that don’t allow their citizens to be free and don’t protect their rights degenerate into despotisms.
If India does not pay attention to this, we are in for a very bad time.